[dave14]

How many of you when you've bought a new bucket of salt thoroughly mix the contents before using it?

I recently picked up a tub of redsea coral pro because it was cheap ((£37), have always used TMC Pro Reef before)) used it last week for the first time and decided to test the mix before adding to my tank

PH 8.3
KH 8.2
Calcium 420
Mag 1050
NO3 0
PO4 0

All tests done with salifert kits

Previously when doing water changes I have only checked salinity.

Today I took the bag of salt out of the bucket, gave it a good shake, poured the contents into an empty bucket and then back into the original bucket and then made up my water.

After mixing for 3 hours I have tested this new mix

PH 8.3
KH 8.0
Calc 430
Mag 1280
NO3 0
PO4 0

Not a big difference except the mag, could it be that the mag part of the mix could settle to the bottom of the bucket during transport?

I know only changing 5 - 10% of the systems water it's not going to make much of a change overall, but I wonder about all the trace elements that are in the mix that we can't test for
Be interesting to hear your views on this

[ben]

yeh it is possible the mag settled while in transport. ive read many times that we should mix our new buckets up, but never personally done it.
worth the effort though.

good calcium reading too

[Kevang]

Yep I've had similar experiences with various brands (incl Tropic Marin)

Although I've never emptied the bucket and remixed it I do check at least SG,Mag, Calc and Kh
and correct before adding to tank.

Cheers

Kev

[Social D]

I used to test for everything and warm the water up .. But now i dont beacause it just did my head in and made it even more of a chore than it already is .. So now its cold water and the correct salinity and it goes straight into the tank, Only had one real complaint and that was a bucket of tropic marin that didnt dissolve ... well it did after a day and half of mixing.

I find it much easier to correct any testing results from the tank, Its not hard to do, Its not really worth getting all worked up about this salt does this or this salt does that, and this level is better than that.

Chuck it in ....

[Crabbit]

I had shocking results that were confirmed by the manufactures of pro reef. I tested the buckets before and they were rolled and mixed well. I think it is an important point to consider that the guaranty of 0 phosphate and nitrate doesn't always hold up. But apart from that it doesn't say on most buckets whats expected. Like there isn't a expected KH of Calcium figure. Are salts designs to match element levels of sea water or what we use in our aquariums?

[lindsay]

I normally stay out of posts on Buckets of salts ,because we sell them ,but this time i thought i would add a few points so go easy on me .
Most of you know i use a fair amount of salt to replace water taken out for sales , water changes and deliveries .
I have never tested for any of the salts parameters except sg because at 5 to 10% a week some weeks 15% i cant say i have noticed an increase or drop in parameters from day to day other than what the corals are using each day .
The thing is if you do a 5 or 10% water change a week or every two weeks how much of an impact do you think this will have on dKH Mag and Cal that corals are using on a daily basis in your tank .
The only sure way to get an accurate test on a salt mix is to buy a small box and mix the lot as this sorts the problem of minerals sinking in the lrg buckets and showing bad test results .
Its true no salt is perfect but it still surprises me how often i come across people who think they have a bad batch of salt but when asked what their TDS is they have no idea and find that old RO filters are often to blame .

[Crabbit]

My 200G with 3 stage DI RO unit came with a in line TDS meter which measures TDS in to the unit and out of the unit. So I know what is exactly going on with my RI water. I have seen similar meters for as little as £20. I have never got anything out of the unit apart from 0. But surely if i were to get a TDS reading this would only make trace elements higher in the salt mix as they would be getting through the unit along with other things? Its is a good point and getting an in line meter would let you also get the full use of the replacement filters. You could be changing them to early

[lindsay]

Think ide rather stick to as near a tds of 0 as above could mean all sorts of minerals and contaminants that we do not want to add to a tank ,and i don't just mean nitrates or phosphates but things that are not included in a bucket of salt that cant be tested for .

[dave14]

I also have an in line tds meter, bought from RO man has always read 0. As far as I know these cannot be calibrated so last week I double checked my stored RO with a hand held meter and still got a reading of 0
I still change the pre filters every 3 - 4 months to increase the life of the main membrane

[jason@jasonsaquatics]

Salts again.

We have to realise that all salts are going to take a beating on forums as one guy has had a bad experience with this brand and another guy with another brand .

When i had my last system running i was adding bio calcium ,strontium ,magnesium and kh buffers and if i were to say a bucket lasted me say 6 weeks and add all the 6 weeks worth of traces to that bucket lol 0 hell.

Why slate a salt if the tank is running well on it even if the readings are a tad town ? ,myself to be safe i would rather have a bucket slightly under than over on the tests and make the very little adjustments that the salt mix lacks to the tank as my daily maintenance.

If i remember Crabbit is the one who can shed some light on this as he was told by a LFS (No Names Please Guys) to add pro reef to his fish only reef ,long story short it killed most his fish as the kh buildup was nuts .

Again i would rather add a few quids worth of additives than run the risk of there being to much in the salt .I know this has different rules for you sps guys than you soft coral guys .

Things change lets take a look at Social D as it wasn't that long ago he walked into our place and wouldn't look at ann sps coral and only kept softs and in that case if he were to have used say*******salt this may have done the trick, but now hes a sps guru god lol the chances of keeping such corals like sps would be a no go area IMO .

With that in mind i would say choose your salts to meet as close to the demand your tank will need and not panic about the rest





jas

[dave14]

This post was never meant to be about slating one salt or another but about whether it is worth giving the dried contents of any salt a good mixing before using it because of settling during transporation
In my case before mixing the mag was 1050 which after mixing came up to 1280

[jason@jasonsaquatics]

Yeah i know Dave and we were told this by Tropic Marin when we contacted them,they said roll the bag lol Sod that i smoke to much to go lobbing a 25kg bag around lol .

But as always on all boards as soon as salt is mentioned it soon gets onto issues about how good or bad it is .

Myself i cant say whats the best salt to use as there are to may factors against picking the best salt as some salts may be better for some systems than others .

It is a good topic as it always points out other issues like the R/O units and so on that i have posted in my last post .

No worries Dave as it was a good post m8


jas

[Dave.I]

It seems that magnesium is the most likely to vary in a salt mix,especialy in buckets.Reason being is the magnesium grains weigh more so sink deeper in the bucket.One thing to do is transport the salt upside down on your way home.Also ask your lfs if they have any spare large buckets of around twice the size of the bucket you buy your salt in.Poor the new salt into the larger bucket and just roll it around the garden or whatever,job done! Also as has been said dont worry to much if parameters arent perfect.As you say Jas i would much rather they were lower than higher as its easy to bring parameters up! Ive tried a few different salt resently and parameters have been very high for calcium,like 480ppm which meens i have to stop dosing calcium via balling for a couple days,not a problem but i would rather not have too!

Dave

[Crabbit]

For me if we are talking about salts and experiences I guess if you only get cheep salt then you aren't expecting to much or waisting money. The money you save you can sent on things missing. Its worth checking every bucket before use. I think a good point for discussion is what is expected in different salts. Apart from it being use in aquariums. What guide line are salts designed for. Are the makers replicating natural sea water levels or aquarium parameters? If it is meant to replicate sea water then the KH and magnesium levels would be lower than what we might want to keep in our systems. Also some salts are designed to be use with tap water so if used with RO water the element levels would be very low. Different parts of the country have hard and soft water. When I first started out one make of salt everyone was very very happy with but then a bad batch with very low KH came out and people lost live stock. Now no one will go near it. I think its best to find what works for you and the only way to find out is suck it and see. But what do you expect from a salt? Do you think it is possible to run your aquarium and everything to stay in check with out adding extra stuff?

[lindsay]

Jas here m8 ,No you wont get a salt like that as the corals will change that as soon as they start sucking lol .

On a 100g tank at a 10% water change with a low cal and mag reading on the salt ,i say low but nothing for me to panic about and had no real overall swing with the system at all.

No mention on the high kh reading you had with Tropic marin pro reef salt crabit when adding to a fish only system ?

Be good to get the input on the forum with that one as to aid in other not doing the same thing


jas

[Crabbit]

lindsay, on Mar 8 2009, 07:46 PM, said:

Jas here m8 ,No you wont get a salt like that as the corals will change that as soon as they start sucking lol .

On a 100g tank at a 10% water change with a low cal and mag reading on the salt ,i say low but nothing for me to panic about and had no real overall swing with the system at all.

No mention on the high kh reading you had with Tropic marin pro reef salt crabit when adding to a fish only system ?

Be good to get the input on the forum with that one as to aid in other not doing the same thing
jas

If a salt has a KH of any reading lets say 10 no matter what salt it is good, bad. expensive or cheap. How could your KH go above 10 if your not buffering the system? From water changes alone? Assuming every bucket of salt you use test out the same before you add it. If the water you take out has a KH of 10 and the water you put back in has a KH of 10 and the magnesium and calcium levels are good how could the KH build up?

[jason@jasonsaquatics]

My head Hurts now m8 ,,I think we can kick this one back and forth crabit as you have had issues with salt .
And if i remember right we had the same questions near as on another thread not to long ago so maybe this is the time to stop this one as it will be a 5 page issue and going nowhere .

In my mind its clear ,salt to low add more

But one thing would be nice to see you post is the issues regarding the Tropic Marin pro reef you added to you Fish only as that would be a constructive post as it could stop others doing the same thing .

I will add another thing to this ,Good post Dave14 and does go to show that mixing the salt again in the bag will bring some of the traces up again and in most lol most cases this will sort out the to high to low questions you get with some salts .


jas

[lindsay]

Just to round that one off Crabbit ,If i remember right we got a tub of alka balance in that soon sorted the problem .

http://www.aquacave.com/alca-balance-400gr...marin-1985.html

Due to the fact that you were using tropic Marin pro reef with all the added traces on the fish only system and not the stated tropic Marin is why you had a huge Kh problem ,I think if mem serves me right it was up at 18 or higher .

This is no fault of yours as the so called shop said it was better if mem serves me right .

To answer your question all the other minerals in salts we don't test for if not being used can over time saturate the system and eventually will leach into the water table .

Problem is the media in the system itself will store up minerals and if your running the system at say 10 what do you think will happen if they get realised from the media into your tank .

Heres one for you .we were looking after a soft tank on a maintenance and all water changes came from the sps system ,tank had low stock .We keep our Kh in the sps system at 8. blah blah to 9 .After a while ,months the soft coral system started to suffer so i tested the kh and showed over 14 ,wow all this with no other added minerals .All i can put it down to is the minerals not being used in the system built up and after time dumped and up it all went .

If I'm wrong I'm sure your put me right lol

jas

[Crabbit]

jason@jasonsaquatics, on Mar 9 2009, 10:41 AM, said:

My head Hurts now m8 ,,I think we can kick this one back and forth crabit as you have had issues with salt .
And if i remember right we had the same questions near as on another thread not to long ago so maybe this is the time to stop this one as it will be a 5 page issue and going nowhere .

In my mind its clear ,salt to low add more

But one thing would be nice to see you post is the issues regarding the Tropic Marin pro reef you added to you Fish only as that would be a constructive post as it could stop others doing the same thing .

I will add another thing to this ,Good post Dave14 and does go to show that mixing the salt again in the bag will bring some of the traces up again and in most lol most cases this will sort out the to high to low questions you get with some salts .
jas

OK no worries if you want me to talk about problems that have occurred I can. With the aim to help people not the aim to put people off or encourage sales linked brands.

I had been running a fish only system and I was using a make of salt that was named a pro reefers salt. Jas no other trace elements were added to the system. It was all good for a few years then all of a sudden things went out of balance. Which resulted in a little higher KH problem. IMO levels can only rise above if it is higher in the first place. If a system was saturated it would have to drop below in order for it to leach out? It was reading around 12.5 not to high but high than aimed for in a fish only system. I never tested any of the buckets of salt before adding them to the system I just assumed that it was ok. I think if you are trying to choose a brand of salt to use it is best to do your research as after my finding I have discovered that now there are salts designed for tap water, RO water, fish only systems and reef tanks as well. Again it is hard to pin point that where the problem can arise as discussed already RO filters can let you down and result in higher than average PH and KH levels that can throw reading above what is expected.

Resent problem with my new set up has resulted in impurities coming with the salt and despite be low in KH and magnesium it also contained phosphate and nitrate. I was only able to detect this as the system had nothing in it but water and salt. This was later confirmed by photometer reading with further testing. If I were to continue with these results it might become expensive with phosphate removers. This could have been more apparent if I test a sample of the new bucket before adding.

The main point this was all started and a great point of discussion is it is an absolute must to test a new bucket of salt with a full spectrum test before every use. As already pointed out different grain size can settle and drop to the bottom of mixes and we can get strange results occurring.

I have been chatting to some of the chemist at work that along with Falmouth marine school about how they have assisted companies to design and reef salt with their new research in to how to go about designing one. This has been tested on their new fragmentation projects at the college but with all the points covered test test and test you should be ok. Problems could be corrected before adding so everything holds each other up.

[lindsay]

No other trace needed to be added as you didn't have corals in the system to use the traces up .This is why some salts are named to be used with tap water ,some with fish only and some with Ro water for reefs .

The use of pro reef on your fish was not an idea situation because of the extra elements in the bucket and in turn aided in the rise ok the Kh IMO,Alka balance sorted out quite quick if i remember right .

Like said we have been here before so old ground really .I'm glad Dave14 posted about rolling the salt to remix as this helped to bring reading on his salt up.
Maybe on your pro reef you used on your fish only settled and this is why you had a huge kh spike who knows


jas