Phosphate removal

Phosphate removal Lanthanum Chloride

#1 dave14

Angelfish

Group: Moderator
Posts: 1,432
Joined: 09-September 07

Posted 07 May 2009 - 10:22 PM

My Brother is a senior manager for the water authority so I asked whether they use Granular ferric oxide (the active ingredient in most iron based media) and if we could arrange a bulk group buy, unfortunately they don't use it but one of their technicians in the lab suggested "Lanthanum Chloride"

Has anyone heard of this before and if it is suitable for our reef tanks, I googled it but mostly came up with suppliers details, apparently it binds phosphates into larger floculates which can be removed by mechanical means

Si G ? any info would be appreciated

#2 Guest_jacksok_*

Group: Guests

Posted 07 May 2009 - 11:56 PM

dave14, on May 7 2009, 11:22 PM, said:

I've used it in the past, and still stock it.

It works, and its very cheap (well compared to iron medias). It's not new, its been knocking around for years, but imports of US products based on lanthanum (e.g. from Blue Life and Caribsea) seem to have recently awoken interest. One UK retailer has jumped on the bandwagon and now offers his own lanthanum chloride product which I find amusing, given he clearly knew nothing about the stuff a week earlier and was advising people not to put it in their tanks. His tune seemed to change once he worked out he could get away with a 500% mark-up on it!

You should be aware that people have had problems using lanthanum chloride, though usually its been because they've been stupid and have overdosed. Pure lanthanum chloride is very powerful stuff - its easy to reduce phosphates to zero in hours which sounds great but rapid change can stress corals, plus they actually need some phosphate so zero isn't actually a healthy level to aim for.

Second, its pretty acidic, and so its easy to crash your dKH levels when using it.

Third, those flocculants are very, very fine. There is some evidence that they can accumulate in fish gills and damage them. So its essential (IMO) that the water is filtered with a fine floss if using this product. If someone tells you that you can skim this stuff out ignore them - they are talking rubbish. If you don't filter these fines out then those that don't end up in your fish will eventually settle in your aquarium and be re-released every time you disturb the substrate. So ideally you would dose this stuff in the sump and filter it out before the water even made it back into the display.

FWIW I would never use it as a regular method for phosphate control - I'd stick with the iron medias. But it can have be useful for addressing sudden spikes, particularly on very large systems where media costs can become prohibitive.

HTH

Keith

#3 chriss

Killer Whale

Group: Administrators
Posts: 3,497
Joined: 14-December 06

Posted 08 May 2009 - 08:23 AM

Thanks for the good info Keith. It's nice when someone can offer a bit of 'proper knowledge', especially where the pitfalls are. It's all to easy to overlook them in the search of a quick easy solution.

Chris

#4 lindsay

Sponsor

Group: Members
Posts: 8,914
Joined: 05-June 06

Posted 08 May 2009 - 09:08 AM

Spoke to a guy a few months back who had used this with good results but as said above he would not use it on a regular basis as its a little on the aggressive side and easy to over do.As he said over dosing can result in disaster.

#5 dannyw

Mysis Shrimp

Group: Members
Posts: 68
Joined: 02-July 08

Posted 08 May 2009 - 11:23 AM

Is this the same thing as the liquid phospahte remover Muzzy sells?

#6 Tony B

Trigger Fish

Group: Members
Posts: 772
Joined: 11-February 08

Posted 08 May 2009 - 12:58 PM

dannyw, on May 8 2009, 12:23 PM, said:

Is this the same thing as the liquid phospahte remover Muzzy sells?

Yes

Tony

Click here for pictures of my old tank and, here for my new grow out tank

#7 Guest_Quigs_*

Group: Guests

Posted 08 May 2009 - 01:14 PM

Ive used it in its pure form, however mixed with RO and added in very small amounts/day.

Had no adverse affects with it and certainly knocked my readings down in the process. Would definetley recommend if levels were a little higher than required but would also recommend using with caution. With regards the flocculents, if the water turns cloudy then you've used too much!

Keith - I think I contributed to the same thread re another UK seller - However managed to save his quotes before he went back and deleted them - Ha!

#8 Guest_jacksok_*

Group: Guests

Posted 08 May 2009 - 02:35 PM

Quigs, on May 8 2009, 02:14 PM, said:

Keith - I think I contributed to the same thread re another UK seller - However managed to save his quotes before he went back and deleted them - Ha!

Didn't realise muzzy'd had attempted to rewrite history! Well, well :whistling:

#9 Guest_Quigs_*

Group: Guests

Posted 08 May 2009 - 05:26 PM

LOL - I do find him an odd character, especially his attitude with being a sponser. I think it was you he told to climb back in your hole wasn't it? :whistling:

#10 dave14

Angelfish

Group: Moderator
Posts: 1,432
Joined: 09-September 07

Posted 08 May 2009 - 05:34 PM

Thanks for the info guys, :whistling:

think I'll stick with Ultiphos

#11 Guest_Quigs_*

Group: Guests

Posted 08 May 2009 - 06:38 PM

How do you find the Utiphos Dave?

#12 dave14

Angelfish

Group: Moderator
Posts: 1,432
Joined: 09-September 07

Posted 08 May 2009 - 09:34 PM

Quigs, on May 8 2009, 07:38 PM, said:

How do you find the Utiphos Dave?

I like it Graham, better than rowa, easier to handle and not so many fines, just need to fluidise it slowly to stop it from grinding itself away. Oh and it's a lot cheaper too

#13 Guest_jacksok_*

Group: Guests

Posted 08 May 2009 - 10:27 PM

Quigs, on May 8 2009, 06:26 PM, said:

LOL - I do find him an odd character, especially his attitude with being a sponser. I think it was you he told to climb back in your hole wasn't it? :whistling:

Yep, I did seem to get under his skin :lol:

To be fair though it must have been embarassing to have someone point out the huge mark-up he was making on a thread he couldn't edit - City bankers would have blushed guiltily at that margin! And that was on the pure stuff, I can't imagine what it might work out at for his diluted product.

#14 Tony B

Trigger Fish

Group: Members
Posts: 772
Joined: 11-February 08

Posted 09 May 2009 - 02:05 AM

I used Ultiphos P, I found it very good at reducing PO4.

Tony

Click here for pictures of my old tank and, here for my new grow out tank

#15 Crabbit

Tang

Group: Members
Posts: 478
Joined: 27-February 07

Posted 09 May 2009 - 10:07 AM

I would be very careful using Lanthanum Chloride I have talked to a few people that and they have had problems with it causing problems with mainly clams. I know it is good but is not suited to every aquarium, depending on live stock. The information hasn't come from hobbyist but from people working in public aquariums. I think because of it ability to flocculate solubility limits of particles becomes a problem for filter feeding animals.

Life is to short for frags

#16 dannyw

Mysis Shrimp

Group: Members
Posts: 68
Joined: 02-July 08

Posted 11 May 2009 - 11:33 AM

Crabbit, on May 9 2009, 11:07 AM, said:

Does anybody now where to purchase Lanthanum Chloride? I am currently using some of Muzzy's and have to say my SPS have really picked up in colour/growth... I am dosing 2ml a day in a 2000l system.

Thanks Danny