[karnivor]

Hi Guys, I bought an underfed looking Achilles tang the other day ( it was a good price) and it has settled nicely and is feeding. As a precaution, I would like to worm him but would prefer to leave him in the tank if possible.
Does anyone know of a reef safe worming food that I can use?

[ben]

might be worth talking to a vet maybe?

[tommo]

Prazi (cedapraz) is your best option if leaving the fish in place, used at recommended dosage, I tried it, and unlike flubendazole, it doesn't seem to kill snails however it is shockingly expensive, and only renders parasites immobile for a few days meaning that there is a chance that fish could recontract the infestation.

Kusuri fluke M for ponds is highly effective (and cheaper than cedapraz) but will murder gastropods. This is flubendazole based, the safest bet, but needs to be executed in quarantine. (this would be my choice most definately)

A healthy achilles after two or three days in quarantine will be totally settled it is also a good opportunity to rid the fish (give it a head start) of their usually massive burden of flukes which can lead to problems later on

Should also be an interesting thing to monitor his progress with the clay going in!

Tom

[karnivor]

tommo, on Aug 15 2009, 09:26 PM, said:

Prazi (cedapraz) is your best option if leaving the fish in place, used at recommended dosage, I tried it, and unlike flubendazole, it doesn't seem to kill snails however it is shockingly expensive, and only renders parasites immobile for a few days meaning that there is a chance that fish could recontract the infestation.

Kusuri fluke M for ponds is highly effective (and cheaper than cedapraz) but will murder gastropods. This is flubendazole based, the safest bet, but needs to be executed in quarantine. (this would be my choice most definately)

A healthy achilles after two or three days in quarantine will be totally settled it is also a good opportunity to rid the fish (give it a head start) of their usually massive burden of flukes which can lead to problems later on

Should also be an interesting thing to monitor his progress with the clay going in!

Tom

Thanks Tom,
Ive just looked at Fluke M on their website but the smallest size they do is way more than I need. However, they now do another product which is essentially the same, and is used for worming discus (something with which i'm familiar, using Droncit).

Ill order some up on monday and then have a go at catching the Tang. meanwhile I can set up my QT with water from my weekend water change.

As I say, this is purely a precaution, in case the fish is being starved by the worms but if flukes are also a problem then it makes sense to shoot both with a single bullet.
Thanks for the advice.

P.S will keep you posted on clay.

tony.

[tommo]

I know about the discus wormer, i suggested the fluke M as a cheaper bulk buy (should have mentioned LOL) as it means that all your fish in the future can be treated in quarantine so as to avoid introducing anything that may adversely affect the achilles

Good work m8, i just need to get me a tank now then i can second your results and perform my own experiments once again

Tom

[karnivor]

Its not quite that simple M8. It has a very limited shelf life once opened (3 months).

I have a few ideas as to what might be happening to this fish.

It may simply have been badly treated and just need time.
It may be riddled with parasites, in which case this treatment should help.
it may be suffering Cyanide poisoning, in which case I'm hoping that Montmorillonite might be helpful, as Cyanide is usually bound to an alkaloid and Montmorillonite is effective against alkaloids.

Then again, it may just end up as a fish supper

[tommo]

Thats true doh, i forget, as i use it on loads of ponds, when i bought big farm grade tubs it lasted me not very long as virtually every pond i go see has some form of chronic fluke infestation!

Because of where achilles come from, i highly doubt its anything to do with cyanide, though quinaldine sulphate is a possibility. This is theoretically pretty harmless apparently and we used to recieve fish in Jeddah that had been collected using this. I will say losses were slightly higher in these than the undrugged animals.

Achilles have a fair gut length, they specialise in diatomaceous and filamentous algae and if not able to browse to satiation on a constant basis they will not do well whether parasite free or not!

I've only ever tried to keep one (not having suitable homes previous or post) and that was when i was 15 and in a shop display aquarium. It was about four inch long, fed like mad on everything and lasted just over six months without any ailments before an unrefusable offer (when we were redoing the display) came in. it too came in pretty thin, was de fluked wormed and soon fattened up and began to grow.

I had the temperature nice and low set at 23 celcius never exceeding 25 which i recon is a massive key to this species.

HTH

Tom

[karnivor]

Thanks Tommo.
Thats interesting as this particular fish seems uninterested in "commercial" foods, instead he spends much of his time grazing the rocks for what he can find.
It may be the case then, that it has spent too long in a holding facility, being given a diet it wont touch.
Presently, the fish is very lively and confident and has a fairly full stomach most of the time but looks very under weight.

I have covers over my weir that grows the short tufty algae. I also have a spare set. I may try placing the overgrown one in the tank for him to chomp on and replace it with a fresh one.

Tony.

[tommo]

Usually they cant refuse julian sprung's purple seaweed, and its exceptionally good for them.

Will your quarantine system take a reasonable amount of food? If so, it is an excellent chance to get the fish eating some more normal aquarium fare (chances are it has just been fed brine shrimp or some other frozen particulate food which is clearly no good for algae eating tangs) New era marine and herbivore flake and or pellets (the latter of which can be molded to glass or rock) are an excellent start. Place a clean ocean rock in quarantine, and each day, mold some new era herbivore and marine pellet together and then onto this rock. the tang, being naturally curious and hungry will usually be picking at it within two days. full stomach thin body can be a sign of acanthocephalans or tapeworms which may mean the fish is doomed if the infestation is heavy but this is not always the case.

Do you know if it was a TMC acquired or waynes world transhipped animal?

Tom

[karnivor]

Thanks for the advice Tommo. I have already got some pellets but didnt think to mount them. Ill give that a try. The QT tank will be fairly fresh, so wont take huge amounts of waste, but I'm certainly up for plenty of water changes to keep things in trim.

I suspected Tapeworms myself and Ill dose at least twice, with a gap inbetween and maybe some Antibiotics as a precaution against a gut infection when they drop off.

It was not a TMC fish, but dont know precisely who supplied it to the shop.

Just ordered some JS Purple Seaweed.

Thanks again.

[tommo]

dose on day one and day five for optimum results with both internal and flukes

good chance its a waynes world fish, in which case it will have been eating prepared food at some point


Tom

[karnivor]

Sadly, I found him dead this morning.
There were no signs of gill flukes whatsoever but an autopsy revealed a number of these beasts residing in his gut. They are not Tapeworm (I dont think), but i'm not sure what they are.
Anyway heres an attempt at photographing one under my microscope (30X). total length was about 30mm.

[bobba fett]

Gutted for you Tony, lovely fish when they do well but a bugger to diagnose any problems as per this thread as there are so many variables with wild sourced fish

[tommo]

nice nematodes! out of all the fish ive cut open, only seen something similar but smaller once, in a batch of multispine pygmy angels that had been housed together in a fish station. Luckily, for future reference they are dead simple to treat using flubenol!

Sorry to hear about the fish though m8, its a bummer when something we are trying to save goes belly up!

Condolences, and appreciation for making the effort to diagnose the issue (its important)

Tom

[karnivor]

tommo, on Aug 23 2009, 12:32 PM, said:

nice nematodes! out of all the fish ive cut open, only seen something similar but smaller once, in a batch of multispine pygmy angels that had been housed together in a fish station. Luckily, for future reference they are dead simple to treat using flubenol!

Sorry to hear about the fish though m8, its a bummer when something we are trying to save goes belly up!

Condolences, and appreciation for making the effort to diagnose the issue (its important)

Tom

Its a shame it didnt last for long enough to get some treatment. It had a full belly when I cut it open and was feeding well. He was a confident fish and had I have got to him in time, I feel i could have done something with him.
The QT was set up and ready to go, but the Flubenol arrived 24hours too late.

Thanks for the help in trying to get him sorted.

Tony.

[bobba fett]

Are you going to try another achillies in the future Tony?

[karnivor]

bobba fett, on Aug 23 2009, 04:28 PM, said:

Are you going to try another achillies in the future Tony?

Possibly, I would depend on price. I'm not up for paying £150 for one.