[mrfishy]

just reading an atricle in ultra marine by jeremy simmonds titled "how low can you go"
according to this article there is only one way to stop your corals fading and that is by going the LNS route !!.
the opening couple of paragraphs has you putting a new coral in your tank then noticing that all our other corals look dull compared to your new one. conclusion is that dsb, scrubbers and berlin methods have failed the hobbyist badly and zeovit etc is the only way to get a healthy reef.
anyone else read this very informative albeit one sided article???????

[lindsay]

Ok who's going first .

[karnivor]

mrfishy, on Oct 22 2009, 04:20 PM, said:

just reading an atricle in ultra marine by jeremy simmonds titled "how low can you go"
according to this article there is only one way to stop your corals fading and that is by going the LNS route !!.
the opening couple of paragraphs has you putting a new coral in your tank then noticing that all our other corals look dull compared to your new one. conclusion is that dsb, scrubbers and berlin methods have failed the hobbyist badly and zeovit etc is the only way to get a healthy reef.
anyone else read this very informative albeit one sided article???????

I cant say ive noticed that. In fact, many of my new corals colour up after a while. What is LNS anyway, or ULNS?. My take on all of this is that if you practice good husbandry and keep your parameters in check, then you will get "natural" colour. I.E good colour without pale, underfed looking corals.

My description of LNS would be attaining NSW levels. Even that is hard, but its an achievable goal IMO without providing laboratory conditions in your tank.
My reef is colourful enough as it stands, but under natural daylight looks brown, which for me seems like a natural state for my corals to be in.

[lindsay]

I think the first point is not to compare all the other methods to Zeovit,but to ask your self why the other methods are said to have failed the hobbyist.

[Social D]

I dont see much of a difference Tony tbh.

Berlin Method or not 0 is zero with what ever test kit one uses how you get there .. doesnt really matter, There isnt one way per-see
Infact there's loads of ways to achieve it be it keeping fish stock low doing regular water changes, over doing the Phos reactor the list is endless.

When you look at the average Zeo tank mainly uses T5 light with an arrangement of different coloured tubes to enhance the corals mainly SPS.

Add to that Alot of Zeovit tanks use colour enhancing products to reduce the zooanthelle hense the brightly coloured tanks its no wonder they on average pop more its not rocket science behind it, More product placement over Berlin tanks.

I wonder if one swapped the T5 lights with yellow looking 400w 10k .. would you be able to tell the difference i bet not!.
You can make a coral pop even if its on its last legs .. well you can.

Its true Zeovit can and will give you very bright colours but it comes at a price as those end products cost an arm and leg and they arent a one off dose its weekly chore thats not cheap.

Given the choice id stay with Berlin its a damn sight easier to manage and the results are the same lets be bloody honest unless you tip the boundaries one can achieve the exact same results no if nor buts and thats how i see it.

One way achive a goal!! Personally i dont think so, Maybe one way for somebody on the make but not for an outsider looking in.

Now where did i leave that damn bottle again ..

[karnivor]

Tim, I think the big problem for me is the name ULNS. I may have this all wrong and misinterpreting what it tells me but ULNS suggests to me that you are taking the corals to a place beyond the naturally low levels of nutrition they find in the wild.

Thats a big issue for me. Corals are, in the most part, adapted to low - mid nutrient levels and do best there. For me, that seems the logical place to keep a captive reef system. If ULNS takes it below that point, then, for me, it falls outside the envelope in the same way as a high nutrient level does.

If, on the other hand, ULNS maintains corals within NSW levels, then I simply see it as another way to maintain a good reef system. Its not a method I would seek to employ, but then again, I dont need to ATM.

As for lighting, thats slightly different. As long as the corals are getting sufficient PAR and are not being harmed by any elevated UV/Actinic levels, then its simply down to the reefkeepers preferences in terms of how they highlight those colours.
I would happily go down that route (and do).

As for Zeovit in particular, I am no expert on it, and in no position to critisise the methods it employs to get to ULNS, but to an outsider it appears complex and slightly risk taking and removes some of the resilience of the reef system.

I'm more than happy to be convinced otherwise.

[Social D]

There's prob a good amount of marketing psychology with the word ''Ultra'', Somewhere down the line somebody thought lets change the name of something in order to increase sales, For instance say somebody has high nutrients and needs a fix, Then a bottle with the word Ultra on it
can be seen as something special espcially if a shopkeeper tells the reefkeeper its the bee's and ee's
Once your hand touches it your almost half way there to buying.

A quick glance at some of the dream tanks of the quarter on Zeovit, If you take a look at nitrate for instance they all vary from 0.2 to 10
So are these Ultra? Because they are used with ZeoVit/ultralith,?

For me the word shouldnt be used at all

[chriss]

Social D, on Oct 23 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

A quick glance at some of the dream tanks of the quarter on Zeovit, If you take a look at nitrate for instance they all vary from 0.2 to 10

Interesting since my tank consistantly reads 0.2 to 0.5 and I don't consider it to be a low nutrient system.

Chris

[Social D]

Well you lucky git Thats Ultra to my 40ppm tho!

[Social D]

Results from Zeo tanks (all totq)

Nitrate

0.0
5-10
0-1
0
5
0
2
0.5
0
0
0
0.5

Nothing ultra about those

[lindsay]

I have never based the nutrient levels in our tanks on the nitrate readings alone.

[karl]

what is the natural ammount of nitrate is it 0 in the sea just a query or is their some form of nitrate

[Dave.I]

lindsay, on Oct 23 2009, 11:43 AM, said:

I have never based the nutrient levels in our tanks on the nitrate readings alone.

Im the same Linds.Ive had my system down to 0ppm nitrate and 0ppm phosphate and still had what i would consider nutrients due to algae on the glass,detritus in the rocks/sump etc.For me i can tell when i am getting close to low nutrients by looking at my corals.The tips on my sps lighten and are alot more colourful further down the branch.For instance my formosa has bright blue tips but when i have low nutrients the edges of the coralites glow blue also and the blue extends down further into the green.I also have a hummilis that get flouro blue polyps at lower nutrient levels.
I can get these colours at 15ppm nitates and lower but phosphates have to be very low.

[karnivor]

Soooo, what are these other nutrients that cause the corals to brown up. Do we actually know or is it some mysterious mix of contaminants that build up, like Turpens or an excess of bacteria for instance.

Are they something that goes away when feeding reduces, or do they build up over time and can only be removed by water changes.

It could make a good discussion topic all on its own.

[Social D]

Time to plug back in the phos reactor .. cant take anymore talk of blue tipped formosa

[Dave.I]

In all seriouseness though ive changed over from GFO to seachem phosguard.Its aluminium based instead of iron based.To be honest i was just fed up with all the dusty crap and fines off the gfo,and the browning of surfaces in the system.I seemed to rinse the hell out of it for nothing and half of it is wasted when you rinse it.The phosguard however is really easy to use,its large,has no waste and is cheeper!
The formosa above has always been a stunner but i am starting to see a real improvement in a couple of hummilis i have.Weather its the phosguard or micro bacter7 and vodka is another story!

Karnivor,
On the nutrient subject i know things have improved alot since upgrading my skimmer.I now run a tunze 9410 and the nog it rips out is unreal.Bacteria dosing with vodka isnt for everyone and not something to just jump in and have a crack at,but it really increases skimmate and clears water.Add to this activated carbon and regular water changes and im what i would call LNS but by no mean do my corals look starved or pale.The reason for this is a high fish load and heavy feeding.If i was running the system the same way but without the bacteria and vodka im sure i would have brown corals and algae galore!

If im honest i thought i was at 0ppm nitrate until i bought a new test kit a couple of weeks back! Im at 15ppm but its slowly coming down to zero with a bit more vodka and microbacter7.I have also increased the flow a little over the dsb bucket which helps a tad.

I would love to hear peoples views on nutrients and what they are other than phosphates and nitrates.Its hard to explane but you can just tell by looking at your system that they're in there! Even when your tests say otherwise!

Dave

[karnivor]

Cracking Acro Dave, and the zoas are eye popping too. Your coral looks very healthy indeed and the way I like to see them. Its when they become intensely coloured and looking like a fast growing tip, but all over, that I feel its all gone a little too far.

That Acro looks fleshy and opaque with depth to the colour.

I have started dosing bacteria on a daily basis, but without the Vodka (so far), just to try and keep an evenly balanced culture in my tank, so it will be interesting to see what that achieves over the longer term.

[Social D]

Stunning Dave! .. The red tip tetra's look very nice aswell

[lindsay]

Yeah,nice looking corals Dave .I do the same,judge the nutrient level of the tank by the corals.I also compare the colour of the water in a bucket along side a bucket of fresh salt mix on water changes, to get an idea of how clear it is.I can remember having water in a bucket that had a much darker colour than the fresh with very low phosphate and nitrates but had to work hard to keep good acro colours.The last sps tank a 4ft by 4ft had very clear water,so clear that it used to be a bit of a joke with customers because they used to try and guess which was a bucket of tank water and which one was the fresh mix.Not sure what but i think you will find that the word nutrient includes allot more than nitrates and phosphates,although it will most likely end up as one or both of them if allowed.