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Nutrient cycles


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#1 tommo

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 09:36 PM

Hi guys,

Im testing out some new products atm which im hoping to market, these include a couple of new bacterial supplements suitable for both fresh and saltwater which i could see if the theory works, replacing such systems as the KZ and allowing alot more manipulation of bacteriology and water chemistry in our aquaria.

Id just like some form of indication as to what we know about nutrient cycles that go on within the confines of our glass boxes so i know what to aim my reviews at in particular and at what level to aim it too, of course, thats only if im happy with them!

Thanks guys

tom
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Tom

#2 ChrisR

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 08:44 AM

Tom,

What do you mean?? Do you mean how do the different products/systems avaliable to date, deal with the Nitrogen Cycle in our systems specifically N and P.

Chris

#3 tommo

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 06:16 PM

Id just like to see how much of the various nutrient cycles we have in aquaria people know about. I know most people know the basic nitrogen cycle for example but what about what happens to phosphates, etc etc etc and what about the more complex aspects of the nitrogen cycle?
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#4 lindsay

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 04:06 PM

What about systems that appear to have high nutrients,organics yet test show low nitrates and phosphates?.

#5 john h

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 04:40 PM

What about systems that appear to have high nutrients,organics yet test show low nitrates and phosphates?.


i have the very system and its getting me down!!!
nitrate and phosphtes all within levels but healthy algea and cyano. its realy p*****g me off.skimmer is working well but doesnt pull out a great deal.

#6 karnivor

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 05:51 PM

I have to say that I am largely ignorant of nutrient cycles except for Nitrogen. I have a small understanding of Phosphate production and usage , simple and complex sugars, but beyond that I know nothing. I think its fair to say that most of us are aware that other things exist, simply because we see the effects on our aquaria.

I, for one, would be fascinated to learn more if you have some knowledge in that area.

It would make a good Xmas read.
Why do left-over nuts never match left-over bolts?

#7 ChrisR

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 06:17 PM

I have to say that I am largely ignorant of nutrient cycles except for Nitrogen. I have a small understanding of Phosphate production and usage , simple and complex sugars, but beyond that I know nothing. I think its fair to say that most of us are aware that other things exist, simply because we see the effects on our aquaria.

I, for one, would be fascinated to learn more if you have some knowledge in that area.

It would make a good Xmas read.



Would second that :lol: :wub: :)

#8 tommo

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 09:19 PM

Well, so far, im still waiting to get the chance to test the products i have out, might be after xmas before i can do what i want to do!!!!!

the consensus about the nitrogen cycle being the predominant thing in peoples minds is the consensus i was expecting, which is ok

The reason this also comes into fish health is the relationships between certain useful bacteria going bad given the opportunity. Vibrio and Pseudomonas dont just appear from nowhere for example. Probiotics is almost certainly an area of untapped opportunity

The other thing im curious about is the effectiveness of liquid bacterial supplements bearing in mind that some of these bacteria are less competetive than others and many need a substrate on which to become active


Ongoing, and good fun!


Tom
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Tom

#9 lindsay

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 12:00 AM

The last sps system we ran before the upgrade to the new one had a pre filter made up of course coral gravel,but the new larger system has been put together without one,i cant help but think the new system as good as it is would benefit from the same type of pre filter put on it.I know many would scream nitrates but nitrates did not go over 2 in the last system and i dont see them as a problem in this one.
The bad bacteria idea Tommo,makes me want to ask a question but i dare not :lol:,anyway would be a bit off topic :wub: .

#10 tommo

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 01:04 AM

its a massively broad topic, so would it?

Me n my mate have a saying about a famous bacterial based product, '******** ***** clinically proven to do nothing!' not being held liable for that one! hehe

Tom
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#11 lindsay

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 10:07 AM

I am going to add a pre filter soon so will find out how it affects the system overall.
Tommo i have counted the letters in the words to try and guess the name,its a bit like hang man :lol: .If i do guess that could be hang man :wub: .

#12 ChrisR

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 11:47 AM

K****** Z****

#13 tommo

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 01:38 AM

that aint it, thats one i still need to look at,

Its a well known branded freshwater product

lol

Tom
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#14 ChrisR

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 08:18 AM

Tommo,

Are you having a look at all the avaliable marine bacterial products??

Chris

#15 tommo

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 12:52 AM

not yet no, i will be gettin hold of as many as possible.
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#16 Blacktip

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 08:49 PM

Been thinking about this.
Tom mentioned on one of his posts about having 0 nitrates and the problems that could bring. I lost an LPS and someone put that down to too low phosphates. Michael Shang swaps water from his FO to his reef to put some nitrates into his reef. Someone, I think Karnivore, has been dosing ammonia. Putting all this together got me to thinking. Do we under stock our reefs with fish? If we put in more fish will that give us a better balance of ammonia nitrates and phosphates? That being said NSW has pretty much 0 in everything so that confuses me a bit. In all my diving I've not seen that many LPS corals other than gonio so not really sure what environment they come from.
Thoughts?

#17 Twistedpro

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 11:36 AM

I would like to know what you know Tommo

Our tanks can switch from being a nitrogen-controlled to a phosphorus-controlled habitat, dependant on the concentration of elements, how do you propose to balance this?

#18 tommo

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 11:38 PM

Basically, the products i have on test in our various systems at work from fresh to tropical are microbe lift. With particular emphasis on the special blend. This is what i am working with at this moment, but the results wont really be relevant to what i propose until i get this reef tank set up.

So far one basic test has proved successful. Using customers as 'guinea pigs', the cloudy water syndrome often experienced with new freshwater aquarium setups in our area as aresult of chronic bacterial blooms clears up very effectively when special blend is introduced presumably as the beneficial bacterias outcompete the unsightly and potentially dangerous species

Essentially, the common practice when fishkeeping is to focus very much on the nitrogen cycle and dismiss other things that go on, such as phosphorous cycles. By dealing with all of these in a more biological way, using bacterial supplements and scrubbers for example, the idea is to create those 'perfect' water conditions without inhibiting nutrient availability to our reef aquarium inhabitants.

The 'switch' is a bit misleading. our tanks are very nitrogen controlled, but should they be? If those nutrients can be dealt with elsewhere, that gives greater substrate area for bacteria that have other agendas.

Blacktip, Just because you dont see these nutrients in the same format in seawater as you do in your aquarum (largely due to the dilution factor) doesnt mean they aren't there. All corals are almost constantly bombarded with waste products from the fish and animals that live amongst them, not only that, there is soo soo much food in NSW in the form of various planktons etc, that fix nutrients in their tissues. Realistically, the fauna in an aquarium is at a much lower density than in the natural environment so allowing nutrients to creep up a little in the aquarium is possibly a good approach to managing a successful reef at this current time. Stocking is a touchy one, i always have and will dramatically 'overstock' but i always end up with a well balanced aquarium because i am meticulous (so far)

KZ systems is probably as close so far as we have got to managing a NSW like aquarium with nutrients available, but not visible (when it isn't abused in favour of pastel shades) but i think microbe lift products could well prove to be effective competition and i think they are a bargain.

One thing that does bother me, and why this should still all be taken very lightly, is that there is slight variance in proportion and species of bacteria between freshwater and marine environments, so the catch all nature of special blend sort of leaves me at half way house until i start to see more and more of these results.

doubting Thomas suppose you may call me in that respect. Yakult for fish comes to mind, but at least the bacterias in this one are actually real species and dont have manufactured names.

I have very little time and a very full plate, but im still alive, and all this is still ticking over in my brain

hope thats enough for now. more to come. I dont want to go over the top yet!

Tom
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Tom

#19 Blacktip

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 07:50 PM

Very interested and very resonable - looking forward to reading the rest!

#20 Guest_Quigs_*

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 08:15 PM

Isn't this the stuff SocialD (Tim) has started to use to replace his ULNS potions?




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