[ChriX]

Hi all, I think this may be a lighting problem but not 100% so please move me if needed!

I currently run a 25L nano with a DIY LED setup that I built myself, made up of 16 LEDs: 50/50 of Cree XR-E Q5 white and Royal Blues. When I was down at Jason's in Jan he was telling me that I wouldn't do very well with them, and I think he might be right. Don't know if you'll remember Jason as it was quite a while ago now, but I was down with a mate, we both had the same tank and he was running T5s.

Anyway, that day I got a few different SPS frags and a small hammer coral. Everything is still alive and the SPS seem to be growing nicely, however there is no colour in them whatsoever. I had a green monti frag from another place which also has no colour at all, but like everything else seems to be growing OK. The hammer doesn't inflate anywhere near as much as it did when I first had it. Coralline is also really pale, the LR looking no better than the day I got it - compared to my mates tank it looks like a pile of concrete. I've also got a bit of GSP which looks a bit rough, and some mushrooms which are pale like everything else. As a test I gave a piece of my monti to my mate and it has so much more colour now. All the SPS are roughly the same colour, they aren't white but are very close to it with just a hint of their real colour, and have now been like this for as long as I can remember.

Going on what Jason said that day I think all my problems could be lighting related, so I'd like to make a change. I've currently got the LEDs dialled right back incase they were too bright and will see how that goes for a few weeks before making any changes, but my tank has never had rich coloured coralline. It used to grow faster than I could take care of it in previous tanks of mine.

Hopefully you guys will be able to tell from that description if it's lighting related or not, but I would be very grateful for some advice one way or the other.

[ben]

welcome to the forum. im no expert in lighting but imo it could well be the problem. i know other people who have got rid of their LEDs because of the poor results. As long as your water tests come out fine then swapping over the lighting sounds like a good move.

[lindsay]

Welcome to IR ,it does sound like its a lighting problem,but could you add some test results and if possible a few pictures.

[Marcus Watts]

Hi and welcome,
The leds would have been fine but 16 is nowhere near enough on 25gal - all lighting available today will work perfectly if enough is used - Using 3w leds run at full power 30-36 leds would do the job perfectly, with a lense that allows overlap of the beams. I ran 6 new style aquaray strips on a 28 gallon nano with very good results, and currently have 9 rays and 3 tiles on the 5 footer.

Leds were getting stick but it is just a case that we need to learn how to get the best from them - if you put 2 little 15" T5's on the tank the sps would be equally underlit and the colour the same or worse. I'd strip down your original setup if possible and build a 7*7 block of cree's, 36 whites (10k's), 13 blues (50k's). Fully dimmable but run 9 hours a day at full power you will have some of the best led lighting for sps there is. (and the lowest running costs possible)

good luck

marcus

[ChriX]

Here are some photos, the monti for example was bright green when I got it, and has been its current colour for probably 7 months. As I mentioned I have dialled back the lighting quite a lot, I would like to see the SPS develop some colour, even if it is brown. Note not much coralline, and where present is also quite bleached, also rough looking GSP. Will do some tests and add these too - thanks for the help & welcome!

[ChriX]

Marcus Watts, on May 4 2010, 10:04 PM, said:

Hi and welcome,
The leds would have been fine but 16 is nowhere near enough on 25gal - all lighting available today will work perfectly if enough is used - Using 3w leds run at full power 30-36 leds would do the job perfectly, with a lense that allows overlap of the beams. I ran 6 new style aquaray strips on a 28 gallon nano with very good results, and currently have 9 rays and 3 tiles on the 5 footer.

Leds were getting stick but it is just a case that we need to learn how to get the best from them - if you put 2 little 15" T5's on the tank the sps would be equally underlit and the colour the same or worse. I'd strip down your original setup if possible and build a 7*7 block of cree's, 36 whites (10k's), 13 blues (50k's). Fully dimmable but run 9 hours a day at full power you will have some of the best led lighting for sps there is. (and the lowest running costs possible)

good luck

marcus

Hi Marcus, it's 25 litres not 25 gal! While I'm at the photos here is my array. I was running it close to full power for the past few months, but it doesn't seem to have done much good. As mentioned I am now running very low to see what happens.




Cheers

[karnivor]

I'm still waiting to see my first picture of a successful LED lit SPS tank. When i say successful, I mean one that has been running for 12 months with great growth and colour.

As for efficiency, they are no more efficient than T5's, the only advantage being that they can can give a greater density of light because you cant cram enough T5's in the same space.

With regards to the lights you have built, you should consider the use of lenses as you are losing a large proportion of the available light.

There are many factors to consider when using LED's for SPS, and not just PAR.

I have been there, with the best LED lighting that money can buy, and i'm about to re-utilise them on a new tank, but i'm not confident.

Ask yourself why so many of them are available 2nd hand.

I cannot say that your problem is wholly down to LED lighting as many factors affect the way that SPS grow and colour up, but it may well be a contributing factor.

Marcus, I ran 800watts of LED lighting over my 5' tank. I now run 800watts of metal halide and the difference is stunning. My tank thread says it all.


Tony.

[ChriX]

Tony,

I looked at lenses, but the LEDs are about 10-20 mm off the surface of the water (with a guard between) as it is, so not sure I could fit them in. You say there are many factors to consider - would you mind going into some, or posting some links? I'm interested to learn why I'm failing.

Given my tank size above, what would you personally suggest changing the lighting to? I've seen some 70W MH units around and wondered if they would be any good, doing away with the original hood. Alternatively I could probably fit 4x 18W T5s in there at a real push, I do love the look given by LEDs and MH though. A 3rd option may be 2x 18W with some of the LEDs either side.

Chris

[karnivor]

LED lighting is strange, in that it produces no UV and whilst producing virtually no Infra Red, it is quite high in visible red.

My theory is that they find this type of light awkward to survive under for long periods. The lack of IR and UV prevents them from producing protective pigments whilst the high levels of red would naturally only suit shallow water corals, as all red dissapears below 10mtrs.

I must stress however, that it is only a theory, but you can punch as much light as you want on them and they dont perform properly.

If you look at my tank thread, you will notice that my corals appeared reasonably colourful under LEDs, but this was purely down to the amount of blue light being shoved at them. Then take a look at the first picture showing my changeover to MH lighting and the same corals look awful. Now carry on down and take a look at the same corals a few weeks later, when the metal Halides have done their work and you will see just how much more pigment and flesh they are carrying.

If it were my Tank, I would look at going down a somewhat radical direction.

I notice you have some electronic knowledge, judging by your bench, so i'm sure you could cope with what i'm about to say.

How about trying a couple of HID headlight fittings. They are basically 55w halides that run off a 12v supply. They are very cheap and you can get them in 4.5k 6k 8k 10k and 12k temperatures.
ive been toying with the idea for something similar. bulbs are cheap to buy as well.

Take a look here:-

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/55W-HID-CONVERSION-K...#ht_3324wt_1165

Tony.

[Marcus Watts]

karnivor, on May 5 2010, 12:28 AM, said:

I'm still waiting to see my first picture of a successful LED lit SPS tank. When i say successful, I mean one that has been running for 12 months with great growth and colour.
Marcus, I ran 800watts of LED lighting over my 5' tank. I now run 800watts of metal halide and the difference is stunning. My tank thread says it all.


Tony.

Hi Tony, as you know there aren't many tanks past the 12 months yet as leds back were not very well understood and money was wasted jumping onto a technology not fully tested on sps. It does puzzle me that people using MH will change bulb types, bulb makes, bulb temps, balasts etc etc as better or more suitable options become available.....but then seem to think of all leds as the same ! I could find a useless mh bulb suitable for lighting a carpark rather than a coral tank but I wouldnt then state that all mh is no good for corals . New tech needs time and study -new generation leds are becoming another suitable light source for corals and many new tanks will be cropping up as they mature - The newest leds come with a UV warning to protect eyesight as well - so I presume they emit uv now ? its only all the old style leds for sale as well, - aquabeam tiles, K2's are rocking horse s**t second hand, and when they are they are still 80-90% of the new price

this tank only took a minute to find and I think it is fairly inspirational - in fact its very very good, one we could all be proud of I like to think



I totally agree in having no confidence in putting old tech leds over a tank, I they may be nice for the patio or decking though, but the current generation of leds are certainly suitable for corals - all lighting we use will be superceeded - thats the way we progress, and the future is about efficiency, carbon footprints and fuel economy....

[karnivor]

I agree, thats a nice tank and would be interested in its full history. I.e has it been grown on led from day 1 and how old is it.

I certainly dont think that all leds are the same, but give or take slight differences, whites have a similar spectrum and so do blues. The recent development of UV led's is encouraging and ive got 2 40watt ones sitting in a drawer, which I did some experimenting with some months ago.

Efficiency still remains a problem, even with the latest LED's, and heat dissipation away from the led chip itself prevents any major leaps forward.

As ive said, i'm already in the throws of revisiting the technology with my new tank, having made some mods to the lighting, and I may well look into the addition of UV at some point.

For me, Plasma holds the best hopes for the future, and I'm keeping a keen eye on the technology, with particular interest in bulb development.

My new tank will have about 450watts of led lighting, with a ratio of 2:1 white/blue.